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We've heard a lot over the last several weeks about getting rid of taxes on tips - notably from Donald Trump. It's called no tax on tips. No tax on...
过去几周，我们听到了很多关于取消小费税的消息，尤其是唐纳德·特朗普。这叫做no tax on tips。
And then Kamala Harris in her Nevada speech about a week and a half ago. And eliminate taxes on tips for service and hospitality workers.
然后是卡玛拉·哈里斯大约一周半前在内华达州的演讲，其中提到取消服务和酒店工作人员的小费税。
But you know who doesn't agree with this policy? Economists. Yes. Economists and tax experts like Howard Gleckman. It's a terrible idea.
但你知道谁不同意这项政策吗？经济学家。是的。经济学家和税务专家，比如霍华德·格莱克曼（Howard Gleckman）。这是一个糟糕的想法。
Howard is a senior fellow at the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center. And, Wailin, shall we just go through some of the reasons why most economists hate this idea?
霍华德是城市布鲁金斯税收政策中心的高级研究员。Wailin，我们来看看大多数经济学家讨厌这个想法的一些原因吧？
Yes. Let us count the ways. All right - unfairness, for one thing. Yeah.
好，让我们一起看看。首先是不公平。是的。
Like, why should a waiter get part of their income tax-free, but the dishwasher in the back doesn't, nor does, say, a cashier at Target?
比如，为什么服务员可以免税获得部分收入，而后面的洗碗工却不能，塔吉特的收银员也不能？
Also, more than 1 in 3 tipped workers already don't pay federal income taxes. They don't earn enough.
此外，超过三分之一的小费工人已经不缴纳联邦所得税。他们赚得不够多。
People could also game the system. What's stopping a corporate lawyer from taking their fees as a gratuity? Yeah, maybe a tip jar when you go in for your merger or acquisition.
人们还可以钻制度的空子。是什么阻止了企业律师将他们的咨询费定义为小费？是的，也许是在你进行合并或收购时的小费罐。
It might be a pretty big jar. It's not like a... We're going to need a bigger jar. ...Take-a-penny, leave-a-penny situation.
它可能是一个非常大的罐子。它不像……我们需要一个更大的罐子。拿一分钱，留一分钱。
You know, that is a big one. So given the concern of people redefining their income as tips, how could this policy be written in a way that minimizes the fallout?
这是一个宏观的问题。考虑到人们将收入重新定义为小费的担忧，如何制定这项政策以尽量减少影响？
This is THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY. I'm Darian Woods.
这里是THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY。我是Darian Woods。
And I'm Wailin Wong. Today on the show - how to put in place guardrails for a policy that many economists believe is likely to go off the rails.
我是Wailin Wong。今天节目的主题是如何为许多经济学家认为可能跑偏的政策设置护栏。
Shannon Lee is an aesthetician - you know, skin care, beauty treatments. And she says she got into it because of her own acne. And she says when her customers come in with it, it is quite satisfying to treat.
Shannon Lee是一位美容师，负责皮肤护理、美容治疗。她说她是因为自己的痤疮而进入这个行业的。她说，当有痤疮的顾客进来时，治疗起来非常令人满意。
I think acne is, like, my favorite thing ever. You love acne. I love acne.
我认为痤疮是我最喜欢的东西。你喜欢痤疮。我也喜欢痤疮。
I bet Shannon and I both enjoy watching pimple-popping content on social media. Sorry, Darian.
我敢打赌，Shannon和我都喜欢在社交媒体上观看挤痘痘的内容。对不起，Darian。
No comment. Look, I'm not going to yuck your yum, as they say... It's very compelling. ...But it's incredibly disgusting. I can't look away.
无可奉告。听着，我不会对你的爱好感到厌恶，就像他们说的……这非常引人注目。……但它令人作呕。我无法移开视线。
Now, Shannon has her own business in New York, and we spoke there with a treatment table between us.
现在，Shannon在纽约有自己的生意，我们在那里进行了交谈，中间有一个治疗台。
Shannon says the mid-range for aestheticians in New York is about $22 an hour, plus commissions and tips. Her employees earn about a third of their income through tips.
Shannon说，纽约美容师的中端收入约为每小时22美元，外加佣金和小费。她的员工通过小费赚取约三分之一的收入。
We're talking $30 an hour or even more. Shannon gets tips, too. So this proposal to make those tips tax-free sounds almost too good to be true.
我们说的是每小时30美元甚至更多。Shannon也会得到小费。因此，这项让这些小费免税的提议听起来好得令人难以置信。
If you're to not have to pay taxes on those tips, would that be a good thing for you? Am I allowed to say yes? You're allowed to. Absolutely, this would help out.
如果你不必为这些小费纳税，这对你来说是一件好事吗？我可以说是吗？你可以。当然，这会有所帮助。
Shannon thinks other workers and business owners might be tempted to change their fee schedules so that more income comes in as tips.
Shannon认为其他工人和企业主可能会倾向于改变他们的收费计划，以便更多的收入以小费的形式出现。
I think it will change the people's perspective on how they structure everything.
我认为它会改变人们对薪资构成的看法。
That is one of the big concerns from the tax experts like Howard Gleckman from the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center.
这是城市布鲁金斯税收政策中心的霍华德·格莱克曼等税务专家的一大担忧。
When you tax income in different ways, people are going to work very hard to characterize their income in the lower-tax form.
当你以不同的方式对收入征税时，人们会非常努力地以低税率的形式描述他们的收入。
Howard points to plenty of historical examples where a regulation or lower taxes for some types of income have meant that people changed how they get compensated.
霍华德指出了许多历史例子，其中对某些类型收入的监管或降低税收意味着人们改变了他们获得报酬的方式。
We all now take employer-sponsored health insurance for granted. Everybody - you have a job, you expect to get health insurance through your job. That didn't exist before World War II.
我们现在都把雇主赞助的健康保险视为理所当然。只要你有工作，你就希望通过工作获得健康保险。二战前不存在这种情况。
Yeah. The Stabilization Act of 1942 froze wages and benefits. It was part of a wartime effort to control inflation. But it had a big exception. Pension plans and insurance could grow. So they did.
是的。 1942年的《稳定法案》冻结了工资和福利。这是战时控制通货膨胀的一部分举措。但它有一个很大的例外。养老金计划和保险可以增长。所以他们就这样做了。
It led to these big, all-encompassing health insurance plans being a very normal part of American compensation in a job. This very American health care system is a historical accident fueled in part by people seeing loopholes and using them.
这导致这些庞大的、包罗万象的健康保险计划成为美国工作报酬中非常正常的一部分。这个非常美国化的医疗保健系统是一个史无前例的意外，部分原因是人们发现漏洞并加以利用。
Another example that really highlights what happens when you tax two different forms of compensation differently is something big-shot financial people know really well.
另一个真正突出了当你对两种不同形式的薪酬征收不同税款时会发生什么的例子是金融巨头非常了解的事情。
Hedge fund managers, private equity partners - they have learned that getting paid a salary doesn't work out the best for them tax-wise.
对冲基金经理和私募股权合伙人已经了解到，从税收角度来看，领取薪水对他们来说并不是最好的选择。
If you're somebody, particularly somebody who's making a lot of money, and you can turn your income into capital gains, you're going to be paying a maximum rate of 20%.
如果你是一个人，特别是赚了很多钱的人，你可以把你的收入变成资本收益，你将支付最高20%的税率。
If it's ordinary income or wage income, you're going to be paying at 37%. So there's a big incentive to change the way your income is categorized.
如果是普通收入或工资收入，你将支付37%的税率。因此，改变收入分类方式的动机非常强烈。
Some call this the carried interest loophole. It's when, in lieu of some salary, these finance people get a share of the profits from the deals the companies worked on. That's then taxed at that lower capital gains rate, as it's considered a profit on selling an asset.
有人称之为附带权益漏洞。这些财务人员除了获得部分薪水外，还可以从公司参与的交易中获得部分利润。然后按较低的资本利得税率征税，因为这被视为出售资产的利润。
The end result of all these loopholes and carve-outs means that the tax code can be gamed. Laws intended to benefit one group might actually benefit another. And the government finds it harder to raise revenue.
所有这些漏洞和豁免的最终结果是，税法可以被操纵。旨在使一个群体受益的法律实际上可能使另一个群体受益。政府发现增加收入更加困难。
So we posed the challenge to Howard - if the elimination of taxes on tips had to be made, how could the unintended consequences be minimized?
我们向霍华德提出了挑战——如果必须取消小费税，如何将意外后果降至最低？
What kind of guardrails could be put in place to reduce gaming of the system, like that hypothetical corporate lawyer with a tip jar?
可以设置什么样的护栏来减少对系统的操纵，就像那个假想的拿着小费罐的企业律师？
So this starts getting really complicated. I mean, you could - you certainly could put in income limits.
这开始变得非常复杂。你当然可以设定收入限制。
Capping the income at which you can get tax-free tips is something that Kamala Harris said she would do. So that would stop those wealthy white-collar workers from claiming their income as tips. Donald Trump's proposal doesn't have that detail.
卡玛拉·哈里斯说她会限制可获得免税小费的收入。这样就可以阻止那些富有的白领工人将他们的收入作为小费。唐纳德·特朗普的提议没有这个细节。
You certainly could try to define those occupations that are eligible for the tax-exempt tips and those that aren't.
你当然可以尝试定义哪些职业有资格获得免税小费，哪些没有。
Again, this is something that Harris has included in her proposal - to only allow this for hospitality and service workers. Trump, again, hasn't specified this.
这是哈里斯在她的提案中包含的内容，只允许酒店和服务人员这样做。特朗普没有具体说明这一点。
That said, Howard is skeptical that this would solve the problem. He says that people like freelancers can redefine what industry they're in.
话虽如此，霍华德对此是否能解决问题表示怀疑。他说，像自由职业者这样的人可以重新定义他们所处的行业。
And they will game the system. Like, they'll change the nature of their work just enough so it fits a definition and allows them to get the income.
他们会玩弄制度。比如，他们会改变他们的工作性质，使其符合定义并允许他们获得收入。
Howard says this behavior could even boil over into outright fraud. And the root of this, he says, comes down to a broader problem with the IRS.
霍华德说，这种行为甚至可能演变成彻头彻尾的欺诈。他说，问题的根源在于美国国税局的一个更广泛的问题。
You could put down anything. The IRS doesn't have the resources to audit you to determine what your occupation really is.
你可以写下任何东西。美国国税局没有资源来审计你，以确定你的职业到底是什么。
So it sounds like boosting IRS resources might be part of your big policy proposal. Oh, I'm a fan. I think it's a great idea. Ultimately, though, Howard was just kind of playing along with us.
听起来增加美国国税局的资源可能是你的重大政策提案的一部分。哦，我是你的粉丝。我认为这是个好主意。但归根结底，霍华德只是在和我们一起玩。
The bottom line really is, you know, it's unworkable. You can't. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and try to fix something that shouldn't happen and shouldn't actually be fixed.
归根结底，这是行不通的。你不能。我不会坐在这里试图解决一些不应该发生、也不应该解决的事情。
Well, I appreciate you being game at least enough to think about the hypothetical.
我很感激你至少有足够的勇气去思考这个假设。
Yeah. I try, but I'm not going to help them out on this. Like, they're making this mess. They've got to get out of it themselves.
我会努力，但我不会帮助他们解决这个问题。他们制造了混乱。他们必须自己摆脱困境。
What Howard thinks would really support tipped workers would be an increase in the federal tipped minimum wage, which is currently at $2.13 an hour.
霍华德认为，真正支持小费工人的将是提高联邦小费最低工资，目前是每小时2.13美元。
Yeah. That surprises a lot of people. I mean, this varies state by state, of course. But for some states, that is the minimum wage for tipped workers.
这让很多人感到惊讶。这当然因州而异。但对于一些州来说，这是小费工人的最低工资。
Yeah. I mean, $2.13 - that's, like, barely going to buy you a fountain drink at the restaurant you're working at, you know?
2.13 美元几乎不能在你工作的餐厅买一杯饮料。
Yeah. And so Howard hopes that maybe bringing up that tipped minimum wage could push back against this entire system of compensating people through the whims of their customers. When you go to Europe, and there's less pressure to tip, how do you feel?
因此，霍华德希望，或许提高小费最低工资可以抵制整个通过顾客意愿来补偿人们的制度。当你去欧洲，小费的压力变小了，你感觉如何？
I feel great. I actually - I'm one of these people who really does resist the whole tipping culture. Yeah. I bet Howard hates those pop-up screens that are everywhere...
我感觉很好。我其实是那些真正抵制整个小费文化的人中的一员。我敢打赌，霍华德讨厌那些到处都是的弹出屏幕……
...Asking for tips left and right. Yes. And Kamala Harris' proposal is paired with an increase in the minimum wage. But it's unclear yet whether that's an increase in the tipped minimum wage. Trump hasn't advocated for an increase in the minimum wage.
到处索要小费。是的。卡玛拉·哈里斯的提议与提高最低工资相结合。但目前尚不清楚这是否是提高小费最低工资。特朗普并没有主张提高最低工资。
And so, just stepping back, do we think that removing taxes on tips is actually likely to happen?
退一步来说，取消小费税真的有可能实现吗？
You know, it's a bipartisan issue. Politicians on both sides of the aisle support it. You've got Republican Senator Ted Cruz who introduced a bill, the No Tax on Tips Act, earlier this summer.
这是一个两党问题。两党政客都支持它。今年夏初，共和党参议员特德·克鲁兹提出了《小费免税法案》。
Democratic representative Steven Horsford said last week he's going to introduce another bill. This one's going to be called the Tipped Income Protection and Support Act. So there's a real possibility it might happen.
民主党众议员斯蒂文·霍斯福特上周表示，他将提出另一项法案。这项法案将被称为《小费收入保护和支持法案》。因此，取消小费税很有可能发生。
This might also have something to do with Nevada being a battleground state. It's a big state for tipped workers. You've got 1 in 5 workers there working in leisure and hospitality.
这可能也与内华达州是战场州有关。这是小费工人的大州。那里有五分之一的工人从事休闲和酒店业。
Oh, wow. Yeah, so no doubt. It may not please the Howard Gleckmans of this world, but it's good politics.
哇哦。毫无疑问。这可能不会让这个世界上诸如霍华德·格莱克曼之类的人高兴，但这是好的政治。
