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This is THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY. I'm Adrian Ma. And I'm Wailin Wong.
这里是THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY。我是Adrian Ma。我是Wailin Wong。
Influence - the ability to persuade, motivate or connect with other people. It's one of these skills that's hard to measure but incredibly important in the world of work.
影响力指说服、激励或与他人建立联系的能力。这是这些技能之一，很难衡量，但在职场中却非常重要。
Steve Martin knows this 'cause he's the faculty director of behavioral science at Columbia Business School. And for years, he's been studying what makes people influential within organizations.
史蒂夫·马丁知道这一点，因为他是哥伦比亚商学院行为科学系主任。多年来，他一直在研究是什么让人们在组织中具有影响力。
It's at the core of everything. It's around us. Without influence, nothing gets done and nothing changes. And yet, Steve argues that we often misunderstand how influence works.
它是一切的核心。它就在我们身边。没有影响力，什么也做不成，什么也改变不了。然而，史蒂夫认为，我们经常误解影响力的作用方式。
So today on the show, Adrian's conversation with Steve. He distills his decades of research to explain the unspoken rules of influence in the workplace.
今天在节目中，Adrian与史蒂夫进行了对话。他总结了自己数十年的研究成果，解释了职场中影响力的潜规则。
Just to set the table, what is influence? I mean, that sounds like a basic question.
首先，什么是影响力？这听起来像是一个基本问题。
I think it's a good question, actually. When I think about influence, I think about it as a change that you are able to affect in someone else as a result of a message that you deliver to them, a request that you make of them.
实际上，我认为这是个好问题。当我想到影响力时，我认为它是一种你能够影响他人的改变，这是你向他们传递的信息、向他们提出的要求的结果。
Or perhaps, you know, it's an incentive that you offer. But the core to influence, Adrian, is to have an impact or a change on someone else. That's what influence is.
或者这是你提供的一种激励。但影响力的核心是对他人产生影响或改变。这就是影响力。
Earlier in your book, you talk about some of the common myths and misconceptions that we have about the way influence works. What are some of your favorite of these myths?
在你的书的前面，你谈到了我们对影响力运作方式的一些常见误解。你最喜欢这些误解中的哪些？
I think many of us believe that if we simply provide people with information, give them the facts, then they'll listen to us, and they'll be influenced by that information and those facts.
我认为我们中的许多人都相信，如果我们只是向人们提供信息，给他们事实，那么他们就会听我们的话，他们会受到这些信息和事实的影响。
But actually, the evidence that it's an effective mechanism for influence and change is actually very poor because from the moment we wake up in the mornings to the moment we go to bed in the evenings, all of us are overwhelmed with information already.
但实际上，它是影响和改变的有效机制的证据实际上非常少，因为从我们早上醒来的那一刻到晚上睡觉的那一刻，我们所有人都已经被信息淹没了。
And so the analogy I use, it's rather like pouring water onto an already full bucket. It just seeps over the side.
我使用的比喻就像往已经装满的水桶里倒水。水只是从桶边渗出来。
And so the reality is that there's really no evidence at all that suggests that information alone is an effective mechanism to get someone to listen to you and to change.
现实情况是，根本没有证据表明，单凭信息就是一种有效的机制，可以让某人听从你的话并做出改变。
There's another popular idea that if you want to know how to influence people, just ask them what would influence them. But you say that the research doesn't really back this up either.
还有一个流行的观点是，如果你想知道如何影响人们，只需问他们什么会影响他们。但你说研究也没有真正支持这一观点。
For instance, there's a interesting experiment you write about, where researchers asked people what would get them to recycle more. Could you tell us about that experiment?
例如，你写过一个有趣的实验，研究人员问人们什么会让他们更多地回收利用。你能告诉我们这个实验吗？
Yeah, exactly right. So we give people four messages. One is about, do it for the kids, future generations.
是的，完全正确。我们给人们四个信息。一个是为了孩子，为了子孙后代。
Another one is, hey, if you recycle more, you can consider yourself an environmentally friendly family. Another message simply said, hey, here's how you can save money if you recycle.
另一个是，如果你回收更多，你可以认为自己是一个环保家庭。另一个信息简单地说，如果你回收利用，你可以这样省钱。
And a fourth message said, a lot of your neighbors are finding ways to recycle more and reduce their energy consumption.
第四条信息说，很多邻居都在想方设法回收利用，减少能源消耗。
We show these messages to people, and we ask them to rank them in terms of the one that will have the most motivational impact and influence over them down to the least.
我们向人们展示这些信息，并要求他们根据对他们的激励影响和影响程度进行排序。
And people typically rate the environmental message as the most motivating, and the message about their neighbors is the least likely to have any influence.
人们通常认为环境信息最有激励作用，而有关邻居的信息最不可能产生任何影响。
But then when we present these messages to people in their neighborhoods - we put them on bus stops; we put them on door hangers in front of their homes and things -
但是，当我们向邻居展示这些信息时——我们把它们贴在公交车站上；贴在他们家门前的门把手上——
and then measure their recycling and their energy consumption on those days, it turns out the message that they say will have the biggest influence over them has no influence at all.
然后测量他们在那些日子里的回收利用和能源消耗，结果发现，他们说会对他们产生最大影响的信息根本没有影响。
And the message that they rejected - that, you know, their neighbors wouldn't have any influence over them at all - that was the only message that actually did influence their behavior.
而他们拒绝的信息——他们的邻居根本不会对他们产生任何影响——这是唯一真正影响他们行为的信息。
So there's a really good example of, you know, what we think influences our behavior is very different to the reality.
这是一个很好的例子，我们认为影响我们行为的东西与现实大相径庭。
So those are some common myths and misconceptions. But you say research has actually shown us how effective influence can work.
这些是一些常见的误解和误区。但您说研究实际上向我们展示了有效影响力是如何发挥作用的。
You've distilled what you've learned into a sort of formula you call the influence equation. And you argue that effective influence is essentially made up of three things.
您将所学知识提炼成一种公式，您称之为影响力方程。您认为有效影响力本质上由三部分组成。
So it turns out that any of us - all of us, in fact - can be a little more influential, boost our powers of persuasion, if we craft our message based on the optimal combination of evidence economics and emotions.
如果我们根据证据、经济和情感的最佳组合来制定信息，我们中的任何人——事实上，我们所有人——都可以更有影响力，增强我们的说服力。
Put another way, Adrian, influence is all about the right mix of facts, finances and feelings.
换句话说，Adrian，影响力就是事实、财务和情感的正确组合。
I love the alliteration here. So emotions, economics and evidence, or facts... Finance and feelings, yeah.
我喜欢这里的头韵。情感、经济和证据，或者事实……财务和情感，是的。
Finance and feelings. I wonder if we could go through each of these categories one by one 'cause it's still a little abstract to me. What's some advice you would have for people trying to influence with facts and evidence?
财务和情感。我想知道我们是否可以逐一介绍这些类别，因为这对我来说仍然有点抽象。您对试图用事实和证据来影响他人的人有什么建议？
We live in a world where we're so overwhelmed with information. And so the research now is very, very strongly advocating that when we present our ideas, less really is more.
我们生活在一个充斥着信息的世界中。现在的研究非常强烈地主张，当我们提出我们的想法时，少即是多。
In fact, the evidence actually shows that the moment that we try to present more than three ideas, people become more skeptical, and they become more resistant to our ideas. And so the amount of evidence we present is important, too.
事实上，证据表明，当我们试图提出三个以上的想法时，人们会变得更加怀疑，并且会更加抵制我们的想法。因此，我们提供的证据数量也很重要。
What about the second piece of your equation? How do people use finances or economics to influence people, you know, besides the obvious of offering people money?
你等式的第二部分呢？除了显而易见的给人们钱之外，人们还如何使用财务或经济来影响他人？
Sometimes, it's the way we actually present it. Let me give you an example. You know, if you're asking for a pay rise, the advice is, don't ask for a pay rise that has a - like, a round-ended number. Don't ask for 10%.
有时，这是我们实际提出它的方式。举个例子。如果你要求加薪，建议不要要求一个四舍五入的数字。不要要求10%。
You know, ask for 8.65% or 11.25%. The research actually shows is that when you ask for something and you use a precise number, people are more inclined to believe that there's a good reason why you've asked for that precise number.
要求8.65%或11.25%。研究表明，当你提出要求并使用精确数字时，人们更倾向于相信你提出这个精确数字是有充分理由的。
Interesting. OK. The third part of your influence equation is emotions or feelings. How might we think about those?
有趣。好的。你的影响方程的第三部分是情绪或感觉。我们应该如何看待这些情绪或感觉？
I think there's two things that we can do here. The first is we can choose our timing. People in a good mood tend to be more inclined to say yes to our requests than people in a bad mood.
我认为我们可以做两件事。第一，我们可以选择时机。心情好的人比心情不好的人更倾向于答应我们的要求。
So the message here is that we don't have to change our request. We just have to change our timing for it to be optimal.
这里的信息是，我们不必改变我们的要求。我们只需改变时机以使其达到最佳状态。
Consider the emotional state of the person that you're interacting with. OK. You're exactly right.
考虑与你互动的人的情绪状态。好的。你说得完全正确。
Consider the emotional state. Now, here's another thing we can do, though. We can actually create emotions. People create emotions by telling stories.
考虑情绪状态。现在，我们还可以做另一件事。我们实际上可以创造情绪。人们通过讲故事来创造情绪。
Some of the stories we can tell might be inspiring and exciting to people. And we know that in emotional states like excitement and inspiration, people think much, much quicker.
我们讲的一些故事可能会鼓舞人心，令人兴奋。我们知道，在兴奋和灵感等情绪状态下，人们的思考速度要快得多。
They're more likely to want to, you know, grasp opportunities and gain things. And so if that's our message, creating that environment of excitement and awe might be a good thing.
他们更有可能想要抓住机会并获得一些东西。如果这就是我们的信息，创造这种令人兴奋和敬畏的环境可能是一件好事。
And in that example you gave of somebody going to their boss and asking for a raise, they could tell a story about, hey, you hired me. You took a chance on me, and you were right.
在你举的那个例子中，有人去找老板要求加薪，他们可以讲一个故事，嘿，你雇用了我。你给了我一个机会，你是对的。
Entirely consistent, yeah. Further confirmation of your brilliance, you know? It is. It is. It is. And that's inspiring.
完全一致，是的。进一步证实了你的才华，是的。是的。是的。这很鼓舞人心。
You made a decision. You made a good decision to employ me. We've been working well together. You know, look at the results that we've actually generated.
你做了一个决定。你雇用我是一个好决定。我们一直合作得很好。看看我们创造的实际成果。
And in that context, I'm not going to ask you for a 25% pay rise. I think that would be wholly inappropriate. But maybe a 6.73% pay rise...
在这种情况下，我不会要求你加薪25%。我认为这完全不合适。但也许加薪6.73%……
Sounds about, you know, realistic. And there you've got, you know, your contrast and your precise number working for you, as well as the emotion.
听起来很现实。你的对比和精确的数字对你有用，还有情感。
I love it. OK. So I think this gives us a sense of what the research says about how effective influence works at work.
我喜欢它。好的。我认为这让我们了解了研究如何有效地影响工作。
But I know some people are going to be listening and thinking, this feels a little icky to me.
但我知道有些人会听并认为这对我来说有点恶心。
Like, the idea that you can sort of decode people's psychologies and influence them, that could be used in a way that's maybe unethical. So what do you have to say to that?
比如，你可以解读人们的心理并影响他们，这可能会被以不道德的方式使用。那么你对此有什么看法？
Well, first of all, I completely agree with you. The fact is is that these can be tools, approaches that can be used in irresponsible, unethical, perhaps even dishonest ways. I wouldn't recommend it.
首先，我完全同意你的观点。事实上，这些可能是工具，方法，可以以不负责任、不道德甚至不诚实的方式使用。我不推荐这样做。
Doing something unethical, you know, manipulating your colleague into a decision at work, that might win you the outcome in that moment. But you've destroyed the relationship forever.
做一些不道德的事情，在工作中操纵你的同事做出决定，这可能会让你在那一刻赢得结果。但你已经永远毁掉了你们的关系。
