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Darian Woods, good to see you. Willa Rubin, PLANET MONEY producer, now, where in the world are you?
Darian Woods，很高兴见到你。我是PLANET MONEY制作人Willa Rubin，你现在在哪里？
I am in Berlin for a fellowship, and I want to take you on a little field trip to a place at the center of a new battle over regulation and competition. We are going to a doner kebab shop in Berlin.
我来柏林参加一个研究金，我想带你去一个地方进行一次实地考察，去一个处于监管和竞争新斗争中心的地方。我们要去柏林的一家烤肉店。
OK. Doner kebabs, you know, they're sandwiches that have minced or sliced meat - not my thing, personally, as a vegetarian, but they are delicious for the people who eat them. I have seen vegan doner kebabs, for what it's worth. OK.
烤肉串是有碎肉或肉片的三明治——就我个人而言，作为素食主义者，这不是我喜欢的，但对吃它们的人来说很美味。我见过纯素烤肉串，不管它值不值。
But, yeah, doner kebabs - they originally come from Turkey, and they are super popular all around Europe, including here in Germany.
但是，烤肉串最初来自土耳其，在整个欧洲都非常受欢迎，包括德国。
People here spend almost 2 1/2 billion euros on them every year, according to an industry estimate.
根据行业估计，这里的人们每年在烤肉上花费近25亿欧元。
And the other day, I met Arif Keles, owner of Hisar Fresh Food in Schoneberg. He showed me around the kitchen.
前几天，我遇到了舍嫩贝格Hisar Fresh Food的老板Arif Keles。他带我参观了厨房。
There's a workstation where bread is being grilled. There's a section for sauces, another for salads. And then there is the meat. Delightful.
有一个烤面包的工作站。有一个区域放酱汁，另一个区域放沙拉。然后还有肉。很美味。
Picture this giant, greasy log of meat, like, the size of a fire hydrant, rotating on a spit in front of a heat source.
想象一下这根巨大而油腻的肉棒，大小和消防栓差不多，在热源前的烤肉叉上旋转。
But soon, the way Arif makes doner kebabs might have to change because Turkey filed an application with the EU, which said doner kebabs originally come from Turkey.
但很快，Arif制作烤肉串的方式可能不得不改变，因为土耳其向欧盟提交了一份申请，申请称烤肉串最初来自土耳其。
They are culturally significant for us. So if people want to make doner kebabs in the EU, they should be made the Turkish way.
它们对我们具有文化意义。所以如果人们想在欧盟制作烤肉串，就应该按照土耳其的方式制作。
This is THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY. I'm Willa Rubin. And I'm Darian Woods.
这里是THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY。我是Willa Rubin。我是Darian Woods。
Today on the show, a spicy feud over the doner kebab and a little-known regulation that could dish out some real economic consequences.
今天的节目是关于烤肉串的激烈争执和一项鲜为人知的法规，这可能会带来一些真正的经济后果。
People have been making doner kebabs in Turkey for hundreds of years. Some historians point to the recipe being found on manuscripts as far back as 1546.
几百年来，土耳其人一直在制作烤肉串。一些历史学家指出，早在1546年的手稿中就发现了这种食谱。
And as people from Turkey moved all around the world, so have doner kebabs.
随着土耳其人迁往世界各地，烤肉串也随之传播开来。
When the doner kebab reached Germany, it morphed into a sandwich with more kinds of meats to choose from - veal and turkey, not just chicken, beef or lamb.
当烤肉串传到德国时，它变成了一种三明治，有更多种类的肉类可供选择——小牛肉和火鸡，而不仅仅是鸡肉、牛肉或羊肉。
People added veggies, salads, sauces galore, and the style became ubiquitous around Europe.
人们添加了蔬菜、沙拉和各种酱汁，这种风格在欧洲变得无处不在。
Andrea Zappalaglio is a lawyer and professor at University of Sheffield, but he is originally from Italy. He has had a lot of doner kebabs in his day.
安德里亚·扎帕拉格里奥(Andrea Zappalaglio)是谢菲尔德大学的律师和教授，但他来自意大利。他一生中吃过很多烤肉串。
Many times. Many times. You know, maybe you went to a concert, or you had your night out. Maybe you are hungry at 4 a.m. Well, we all had our favorite doner place. As long as it's spicy, I love it.
很多次。也许你去听了一场音乐会，或者你晚上出去玩了。也许你在凌晨4点饿了。我们都有自己最喜欢的烤肉店。只要是辣的，我都喜欢。
I'd called Andrea to talk about his other area of specialty - geographical indications.
我打电话给Andrea，谈论他的另一个专业领域——地理标志。
Geographical indications. We've spoken about this on THE INDICATOR before. It's when products get special protections because of where they're made or where their ingredients come from.
地理标志。我们之前在THE INDICATOR中讨论过这个问题。它是指产品因其产地或成分来源而受到特殊保护的情况。
Exactly. Classic example is champagne. Those regional protections give champagne makers in the French region of Champagne a little monopoly over the product.
没错。香槟就是一个典型的例子。这些区域保护使法国香槟地区的香槟制造商对产品有了一点垄断权。
But in the EU, there's also another kind of protection for food and drinks. It's about how something is made.
但在欧盟，还有另一种对食品和饮料的保护。它与某种东西的制作方式有关。
In the doner kebab case, Turkey, they want to register a traditional specialty guarantee.
在土耳其烤肉串案例中，他们希望注册传统特产保证。
The traditional specialty guarantee - it's the kind of overlooked sibling of geographical indication. Andrea says this status can be more of a political or cultural statement.
传统特产保证是地理标志的一种被忽视的兄弟。Andrea说，这种地位可能更像是一种政治或文化声明。
Here, it's just a way to say that a doner is not just this, you know, generic, low-value cheap street food. It's actually part of the Turkish tradition, and so we don't like that a Turkish product is trivialized in this way.
这只是一种说法，表明烤肉串不仅仅是这种普通的、低价值的廉价街头食品。这其实是土耳其传统的一部分，我们不喜欢土耳其产品被这样轻视。
Only 68 traditional specialty guaranteed products are registered in Europe, but they include some big ones, like Serrano ham from Spain or, perhaps the most famous example, Neapolitan pizza.
在欧洲，只有68种传统特产保证产品获得注册，但其中包括一些大牌产品，如西班牙的塞拉诺火腿，或者最著名的例子那不勒斯披萨。
Yes. According to EU law, when making Neapolitan pizza, chefs should use a spoon to place 70 to 100 grams of crushed peeled tomatoes in the center of the disc of dough.
根据欧盟法律，制作那不勒斯披萨时，厨师应使用勺子将70至100克压碎的去皮西红柿放在面团圆盘的中央。
Then they should spread those tomatoes in a spiraling motion and, in another spiraling motion, apply salt.
然后，他们应该以螺旋运动的方式铺开这些西红柿，再以另一个螺旋运动的方式撒上盐。
To get the crust to rise, a chef has to hold their, quote, "right hand at an angle of 45 to 60 degrees to the work surface, placing the disc of the dough on it and turning it with a synchronized movement of the left hand." I have a lot of questions.
为了让披萨皮膨胀，厨师必须“将右手与工作台面保持45到60度，将面团圆盘放在上面，并用左手的同步动作转动它。”我有很多问题。
How is this going to be enforced? Like, are people out there with a protractor? There's a real enforcement question here.
这将如何执行？比如，有人带着量角器吗？这里有一个真正的执行问题。
If they seriously want to sue every doner kebab place who doesn't respect these rules, well, good luck with that.
如果他们真的想起诉每一个不遵守这些规则的烤肉店，那么，祝你好运。
Under Turkey's proposal, beef would be required to come from cattle that is, quote, "at least 16 months old."
根据土耳其的提议，牛肉必须来自“至少16个月大”的牛。
It would be marinated with specific amounts of yogurt or milk, onion, salt and thyme, as well as black, red and white peppers.
用特定量的酸奶或牛奶、洋葱、盐和百里香以及黑胡椒、红胡椒和白胡椒腌制。
Then the final product must be sliced off the vertical spit into pieces 3 to 5 millimeters thick. Chicken would be similarly regulated. And if these rules are not followed...
然后，必须将最终产品从垂直烤肉叉上切成3到5毫米厚的碎片。鸡肉也会受到类似的监管。如果不遵守这些规则……
Well, technically, it means that you cannot use the term doner anymore unless you comply with the specification, of course. But you can't call it a doner at all, then.
严格来讲，这意味着你不能再使用doner这个词了，除非你符合规范。但你根本就不能称之为doner。
Technically speaking, no. So if this goes through and if places in Europe still want to call what they're selling doner kebabs, then they would need to change what they're doing to meet the definition.
严格来讲不行。因此，如果这件事得以通过，并且欧洲的某些地方仍然想将他们出售的烤肉称为doner kebabs，那么他们需要改变他们的做法以符合定义。
But adapting is expensive. Some places might need to get different meats, ones that could be more expensive.
但适应的成本很高。有些地方可能需要购买不同的肉类，这些肉可能会更贵。
They may need to marinate the meats differently. And most places like Arif's are small businesses.
他们可能需要以不同的方式腌制肉类。大多数像Arif这样的餐馆都是小企业。
Arif's restaurant has been around for a long time. His grandpa actually started it in the '80s. Arif spent lots of his childhood here.
Arif的餐馆已经存在很长时间了。他的爷爷实际上是在80年代创办的。Arif在这里度过了他的大部分童年时光。
He tells me he started working here when he was 10. He would stand on a stack of crates to reach the meat.
他告诉我他10岁的时候就开始在这里工作了。他会站在一堆板条箱上去拿肉。
And like Arif's shop, lots of places have loyal customer bases. Arif's worried the new changes might mean doner kebabs just don't taste as good.
就像Arif的店一样，许多地方都有忠实的客户群。Arif担心，新的变化可能意味着烤肉串的味道会变差。
With all the changes, some places could shut down, or the ones that remain might make up for new costs by raising prices.
随着所有这些变化，一些地方可能会关闭，或者剩下的地方可能会通过提高价格来弥补新的成本。
Which people do not want. People are, of course, sensitive to inflation right now. And here in Germany, it peaked at around 11% a couple of years ago.
这是人们不希望看到的。当然，人们现在对通货膨胀很敏感。几年前，德国的通货膨胀率达到了11%左右的峰值。
And when it comes to doner kebabs, Germans are especially sensitive about its price. The term doner-flation has even been thrown around. OK. They take it seriously.
说到烤肉串，德国人对其价格尤其敏感。烤肉通胀这个词甚至被人提起。好吧。他们很认真。
They really take it seriously. And Arif already had to raise prices because of pandemic-related inflation. He's not eager to do it again.
他们真的很认真。Arif已经因为疫情相关的通货膨胀而不得不提高价格。他不想再这么做了。
We repeatedly asked the organization that filed Turkey's application for an interview, and they never got back to us.
我们多次要求提交土耳其申请的组织进行采访，但他们从未回复我们。
But the deputy chairman of the organization did talk to the TV station Deutsche Welle, and he said it's about prestige for the doner kebab - and money.
但该组织的副主席确实与德国之声电视台进行了交谈，他说这关乎烤肉串的声望以及金钱。
We believe that this will be an economic plus for Turkey and, above all, will help the doner's export performance.
我们认为这将给土耳其带来经济利益，最重要的是，这将帮助烤肉店提高出口业绩。
We did hear from Germany's agriculture office, which objected to Turkey's EU application.
我们确实听到了德国农业局的消息，该局反对土耳其的欧盟申请。
It told us it noted the application with astonishment and that it would be bad for the German food industry if the traditional specialty guarantee status goes through.
它告诉我们，它对这项申请感到震惊，如果传统特产保证地位获得通过，将对德国食品行业不利。
This tug of war over doner kebabs - it's like a small millimeter-thick slice of the perpetual larger balancing act over how to manage competition because say there's a product that's doing something special.
这场关于烤肉串的拉锯战就像是一场永恒的大型平衡行动中一毫米厚的小片，该行动涉及如何管理竞争，因为假设有一种产品正在做一些特别的事情。
Protection for that product is, of course, good for the people who make it. Maybe they get to raise their prices.
当然，对该产品的保护对制造该产品的人来说是好事。也许他们可以提高价格。
But that protection could also wind up stifling innovation. Like, if you could only make Neapolitan pizza, maybe you would never get Chicago-style pizza.
但这种保护也可能最终扼杀创新。比如，如果你只能做那不勒斯披萨，也许你永远吃不到芝加哥风格的披萨。
But back to doner kebabs, where are we with that case?
但回到烤肉串，我们在这个案子中处于什么位置？
I did speak to analysts at the European Commission. They're giving Turkey and Germany a few months to come up with a compromise.
我确实和欧盟委员会的分析师谈过了。他们给土耳其和德国几个月的时间来达成妥协。
And if they can't, then the European Commission will issue a final ruling. I asked Arif what he would do if Turkey wins and doner kebabs do get this special status.
如果他们不能达成妥协，那么欧盟委员会将发布最终裁决。我问Arif，如果土耳其获胜并且烤肉串获得这一特殊地位，他会怎么做。
He said he would still sell doner kebabs but under a different name. What name would be used instead of doner?
他说他仍会以不同的名称出售烤肉串。用什么名字代替doner？
He would drop the E-R from doner and just call it a dona, D-O-N-A. Very clever. I guess a doner is just as juicy as by any other name. I mean, what's in a name anyway?
他会把烤肉串中的E-R去掉，直接称之为dona。非常聪明。我猜其他名字的烤肉串一样美味。名字到底有什么意义？
